Expelled does low box office, enrages viewers; Dawkins has to take things in hand
Expelled, “one of the sleaziest documentaries to arrive in a very long time… a conspiracy-theory rant masquerading as investigative inquiry”, according to the New York Times, did “a feeble $1,130″/screen on opening weekend.
An enraged viewer of Jewish heritage penned some hate mail to the Skeptic’s founder Micheal Shermer, who passed it on to our man Dr. Dawkins to deal with. Dawkins posted an open letter to the moviegoer yesterday, outlining the con job Ben Stein et al are perpetrating with their film.
http://www.discovery.org/
Posted by Anonymous on April 22nd, 2008 10:48 amAnd do you have a point to posting this link?
Posted by Formo-Mormo on April 22nd, 2008 3:00 pmMaybe you can read it for yourself. People can’t do that for you all the time.
Posted by Anonymous on April 22nd, 2008 3:59 pmIf there is something you wish to bring up from it then do so. Just posting a link without any context is not productive. I’m not doing your research for you.
Posted by Formo-Mormo on April 22nd, 2008 6:16 pmMan, you are unbelievable. The context, the situation the events that the link is referring to has to do with criticisms of criticisms that you are displaying. Its an idea that your ideas may not be so great.
“I’m not doing your research for you.”
Or any for that matter.I would be very surprised if you knew how to construct an argument doing real research. Don’t you read anything at all? If you can’t figure it out then do us all a favor, give up on the “logic” kick.
Posted by Anonymous on April 22nd, 2008 6:51 pmYou know anon, there is a different sort of ID that you are laking, it’s called Intelligent Debate. Figure out how to do that, by presenting positions and backing them up, and then I’ll engage you.
Perhaps you should read over your posts and see that most of them lack real substance, and rarely provide anything to respond to.
Posted by Formo-Mormo on April 22nd, 2008 7:38 pm“You know anon, there is a different sort of ID that you are laking, it’s called Intelligent Debate. Figure out how to do that, by presenting positions and backing them up, and then I’ll engage you.”
Perhaps you should read over your posts and see that most of them lack real substance, and rarely provide anything to respond to”.
Dancing is getting you no where.
I have given you something to debate, the link, and you chose not to figue that out. Goodbye you uneducated, illiterate loser.
Posted by Anonymous on April 22nd, 2008 7:56 pmNo, Formo-mormo is right about debate being thwarted by your comments. All you do, Anon, is show up and say “you guys don’t know what you’re talking about”. You never post an opinion, just the view that our opinions are uneducated. And then you go off on a red herring tangent about some detail of mispelling or something.
I asked you directly what you thought about Expelled, if you were going to see it, etc, and you shut up completely. Post your opinions about the topic at hand, then provide links for backup. We don’t know what you’re arguing for or against unless you say.
Just communicate what you think instead of attacking people, please. Conversation can’t follow unless you stake out a position.
Thanks
Posted by Agnostic 1 on April 22nd, 2008 9:20 pm“I have given you something to debate, the link, and you chose not to figue that out. Goodbye you uneducated, illiterate loser.”
Giving a link, without any context, is meaningless. No, I’m not going to waste my time reading through Creationist nonsense.
If there is something specific you want to bring up from that website, then bring it up and we’ll shoot it down
Think you can do that?
Posted by Formo-Mormo on April 22nd, 2008 9:41 pm“No, I’m not going to waste my time reading through Creationist nonsense.
If there is something specific you want to bring up from that website, then bring it up and we’ll shoot it down :)”
Afraid of something? Suffering from cognitive dissonance? I am surprised how dogmatic you atheists really are. My understanding–correct me if I’m wrong–is that scientists have not yet created life in a laboratory. Having the spontaneous assemblage of the “building blocks for organic life” is about as different from having life as having the building blocks of a house is from having an actual house, right? At any rate, if scientists one day create life in a laboratory, that would simply demonstrate that life can be created by intelligent design, no? All of this begs the rather obvious question of why there are “evolutionary forces” in the universe at all.
Posted by Anonymous on April 23rd, 2008 8:19 am“Suffering from cognitive dissonance?”
Not since I abandoned religion.
“if scientists one day create life in a laboratory, that would simply demonstrate that life can be created by intelligent design, no?”
No. It would mean that you don’t need God to create life.
Posted by Formo-Mormo on April 23rd, 2008 8:53 amSounds to me like you have cognitive dissonance else why are you here? Abandoners would leave it altogether, you can’t leave it alone. No wonder you left religion you don’t know how to think. You just tow the atheist dogmatic party line. Its getting old.
“No. It would mean that you don’t need God to create life”
Yes it does and you missed the point. If we don’t need God then what do we need? Society has yet to see any scientist create from nothing the building blocks to create and sustain a human life, let alone the universe. Why have they not done that yet? Besides of which just because no scientist has the mind capable of doing that does not mean God does not have the mind for it. You can’t come up with the theory of evolution doesn’t mean someone else can’t, so why can’t God create life?
Posted by Anonymous on April 23rd, 2008 9:08 am“Abandoners would leave it altogether, you can’t leave it alone.”
LOL, right. Maybe you should listen to your prophet and obey the 11th Article of Faith.
“No wonder you left religion you don’t know how to think.”
In the case of your religion, once the prophet has spoken the thinking is done.
“Society has yet to see any scientist create from nothing the building blocks to create and sustain a human life”
So?
“so why can’t God create life?”
If he exists then he probably could.
Posted by Formo-Mormo on April 23rd, 2008 9:30 am“Abandoners would leave it altogether, you can’t leave it alone.”
“LOL, right. Maybe you should listen to your prophet and obey the 11th Article of Faith”.
I don’t know what you are referring to.
“No wonder you left religion you don’t know how to think.”
“In the case of your religion, once the prophet has spoken the thinking is done”
Thus saith Richard Dawkin$!
Posted by Anonymous on April 23rd, 2008 9:37 am“Thus saith Richard Dawkin$!”
Actually, that was in one of your religions manuals.
“When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan—it is God’s plan. When they point the way, there is no discussion, it should mark the end of controversy,” stated a part of the ward teaching message printed in the
Posted by Formo-Mormo on April 23rd, 2008 9:43 amImprovement Era, June 1945, p. 345.
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Office of the First Presidency
Salt Lake City, Utah
December 7, 1945
Dr. J. Raymond Cope
First Unitarian Society
13th East at 6th South Street
Salt Lake City, Utah
My dear Dr. Cope:
I have read with interest and deep concern your letter of November 16, 1945, in which you make special comment on “a short religious editorial prepared by one of your (our) leaders entitled “Sustaining the General Authorities of the Church’”. You say that you read the message with amazement, and that you have since been disturbed because of its effect upon members of the Church.
I am gratified with the spirit of friendliness that pervades your letter, and thank you for having taken the time to write to me.
The leaflet to which you refer, and from which you quote in your letter, was not “prepared” by “one of our leaders.” However, one or more of them inadvertently permitted the paragraph to pass uncensored. By their so doing, not a few members of the Church have been upset in their feelings, and General Authorities have been embarrassed.
I am pleased to assure you that you are right in your attitude that the passage quoted does not express the true position of the Church. Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel, must, through the redemption of Jesus Christ, work out his own salvation, and is personally responsible to His Maker for his individual acts. The Lord Himself does not attempt coercion in His desire and effort to give peace and salvation to His children. He gives the principles of life and true progress, but leaves every person free to choose or to reject His teachings. This plan the Authorities of the Church try to follow.
The Prophet Joseph Smith once said: “I want liberty of thinking and believing as I please.” This liberty he and his successors in the leadership of the Church have granted to every other member thereof.
On one occasion in answer to the question by a prominent visitor how he governed his people, the Prophet answered: “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.”
Again, as recorded in the History of the Church (Volume 5, page 498 [499] Joseph Smith said further: “If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way.”
I cite these few quotations, from many that might be given, merely to confirm your good and true opinion that the Church gives to every man his free agency, and admonishes him always to use the reason and good judgment with which God has blessed him.
In the advocacy of this principle leaders of the Church not only join congregations in singing but quote frequently the following:
“Know this, that every soul is free
To choose his life and what he’ll be,
For this eternal truth is given
That God will force no man to heaven.”
Again I thank you for your manifest friendliness and for your expressed willingness to cooperate in every way to establish good will and harmony among the people with whom we are jointly laboring to bring brotherhood and tolerance.
Faithfully yours,
Geo. Albert Smith [signed]
I am not even a Mormon and I found that pretty easy. So there it is.
here’s the link I got it at:
http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/When_the_Prophet_Speaks_is_the_Thinking_Done.html
You seem to blur the lines of unbelief to disbelief. You are saying I don’t know what’s true but I know that they are not. Weird.
Posted by Anonymous on April 23rd, 2008 9:49 amFor a “non-mormon” you sure found that reference pretty quick LOL.
One letter doesn’t refute the institutionalized teaching that the prophet speaks for God and shouldn’t be questioned. This is just one reference, there are many, many more.
Posted by Formo-Mormo on April 23rd, 2008 9:52 amI just no where to look. for an unbeliever who supposedly does nto care what people think you sure try to convince people to your thinking.
“One letter doesn’t refute the institutionalized teaching that the prophet speaks for God and shouldn’t be questioned. This is just one reference, there are many, many more”.
Cite them. Its obvious again you don’t know what you are fucking talking about. Obviously you questioned so it can’t be institutional.
Posted by Anonymous on April 23rd, 2008 9:56 am“for an unbeliever who supposedly does nto care what people think you sure try to convince people to your thinking. “
I present my side and back it up, same thing you are feebaly attemping to do. And I DO care what people think, I simply don’t force people to think a certain way, which is nearly impossible to do anyways.
“Cite them.”
Nah. I have better things to do. Why do you care so much if you are a “Non-Mormon”?
BTW, non-mormons don’t say things like “Jesus is the Christ” and “Abandoners would leave it altogether, you can’t leave it alone.”
Seeing that you grew up in the church you wouldn’t be aware that these are primarily Mormon phrases.
Posted by Formo-Mormo on April 23rd, 2008 10:01 amBy the way here is what your prophet Richard Dawkins says:
“McGrath imagines that I would disagree with my hero Sir Peter Medawar on The Limits of Science. On the contrary. I never tire of emphasising how much we don’t know. The God Delusion ends in just such a theme. Where do the laws of physics come from? How did the universe begin? Scientists are working on these deep problems, honestly and patiently. Eventually they may be solved. Or they may be insoluble. We don’t know”.
What wisdom!
“Seeing that you grew up in the church you wouldn’t be aware that these are primarily Mormon phrases”
A- I grew up with Mormons so I have heard them speak sometimes
B- You know nothing about me. Whereas you and your alter egos are conveniently accessible to.
“Nah. I have better things to do.”
Can’t find them, Huh? figures. I care because I have seen people mock them and I don’t think its right.
Posted by Anonymous on April 23rd, 2008 10:06 amI’ll give you one.
In the recent PBS documentary, Mormon Apostle Dallin H. Oaks make it very clear when he said…
“It’s wrong to criticize leaders of the church, even of the criticism is true.” Here is a TA post about it.
http://topicagnostic.blogspot.com/2008/02/its-wrong-to-criticize-church-leaders.html
Posted by Formo-Mormo on April 23rd, 2008 10:08 am“By the way here is what your prophet Richard Dawkins says:”
Thankfully, no one considers Dawkins a prophet, so I don’t have to be accountable for, live by or defend his words.
“A- I grew up with Mormons so I have heard them speak sometimes”
Yeah, sure.
“B- You know nothing about me. Whereas you and your alter egos are conveniently accessible to.”
I know where you work, I.P. addresses can tell a lot you know. But I won’t hold that against you.
And anything personal you write will be deleted.
Posted by Formo-Mormo on April 23rd, 2008 10:11 am“I.P. addresses can tell a lot you know. But I won’t hold that against you”.
Yeah right. You have to have FBI tech. to figure that out. Do you work for them?
About Mr. Oaks’ comment. I think Ad hominem attacks are unfair also.
About Dawkins. Its great to think that you agree with me that he is a damn fool and the late$t $ucker to parade his Athei$m.
Posted by Anonymous on April 23rd, 2008 10:18 am“Yeah right. You have to have FBI tech. to figure that out.”
LOL, no you don’t. This forum logs the I.P. address of anyone who posts. Don’t worry, I won’t bring up personal things on this blog, unlike youself.
“I think Ad hominem attacks are unfair also. “
Criticizing Oaks comment isn’t an ad hominem, his statement is being criticized.
“Its great to think that you agree with me that he is a damn fool”
Nope, I never said that.
Posted by Formo-Mormo on April 23rd, 2008 10:34 amIp addresses, you don’t know what you are talking about. You don’t know a thing about me and have no access to information about me.
Again I think that Mr. Oaks is talking about leaders themselves and not what they say which can be criticized.
So if you don’t agree with my statement about Dawkin$ and you are not accountable to him, defend him or live by then what exactley do yu do for him? Call him your Pope or Moderator or your Rabbi then.
Posted by Anonymous on April 23rd, 2008 10:48 am“Ip addresses, you don’t know what you are talking about.”
OK Mr.205.200.129.249, I’m not interested in playing your high school games. I’m here for I.D.; Intelligent Debate; either do that or go away.
Posted by Formo-Mormo on April 23rd, 2008 10:53 amHow do you know I am a man? I can make up IP addresses to.
Posted by Anonymous on April 23rd, 2008 10:59 amDawkins is a scholar who deserves to make money from the years of work he’s put in to advance knowledge. He holds the chair for the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford, for Pete’s sake - he’s earned his living.
I love the Dawkins quote on the limits of science…exactly. A humble acknowledgment of the meticulous business of verifying facts and analyzing them into theories, and the very reason why science works - constant pursuit of more refined information.
Posted by Anonymous on April 23rd, 2008 11:05 am“and the very reason why science works - constant pursuit of more refined information.”
Yep, the opposite of what religion does.
Posted by Formo-Mormo on April 23rd, 2008 11:24 am“Yep, the opposite of what religion does.”
No sorry you are wrong. Science and religion, however you define those are different and have different epistemological structures.Even within the realms of science they have different strcutures, same thing with the embarrasing evolutionary psychology and sociobiology.
Posted by Anonymous on April 23rd, 2008 12:35 pmHmmmm, science, form a hypothesis, test it, alter as needed. New information discovered, form new hyposthesis, test it, alter as needed. Becoming more efficient, accepting new evidence, discovering truths.
Religion; here’s my 2000 year old book, it is right, don’t bother testing it, I have faith. Whatever science contradicts it is trumped by the book.
Posted by Formo-Mormo on April 23rd, 2008 1:37 pmAnon, feel free to point out where I am wrong. Please be specific, rather than resort to ad-homenims.
Posted by Formo-Mormo on April 23rd, 2008 2:34 pmAnon stalker, I just re-read one of your previous posts and found something rather entertaining.
You said.
“About Mr. Oaks’ comment. I think Ad hominem attacks are unfair also. “
Then in the very next sentence you level out one of your own ad hominems!
“About Dawkins. Its great to think that you agree with me that he is a damn fool”
LOL, now do you see why it is so difficult to have a rational conversation with you? You are full of contradictions, inconsistencies and dishonest representation.
I waste much too much time responding to your nonsense. If you can manage to come up with some rational posts then we will have a more productive experience here.
Posted by Formo-Mormo on April 23rd, 2008 3:35 pm[sarcasm]Anon stalker, you have proved yourself to be a finely educated individual, a worthy adversary, a fine example of good Christian love.
It pains me so much to delete your posts that you have been warned out, because I so value your input into our sad little forum.
Your actions truly make me regret the decisions I have made in life to reject my former faith and embrace the godless word of agnostics; we are a sad sad people indeed.
I can tell that you have so much light in your life that I am insanely jealous. Obviously, your experience with the Holy Ghost has truly touched you and brought you the light of Christ, because you are such a great example of Christ like love.[/sarcasm]
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